Discussion:
Anyone running X11 apps on Mojave?
Add Reply
Randolph M. Fritz
2018-11-24 05:52:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Does Xquartz still work? or MacPorts X11? Or
?
--
Randolph M. Fritz || +1 206 659-8617 || ***@gmail.com
Fred Weinhaus
2018-11-24 05:59:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
I use Xquartz on my Mac OSX Sierra just fine. But I got it from https://www.xquartz.org <https://www.xquartz.org/>. I do not think Apple supports X11 any longer, only Quartz.
Post by Randolph M. Fritz
Does Xquartz still work? or MacPorts X11? Or
?
--
Randolph M. Fritz
2018-11-24 06:14:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
No, they don't. It's been open-sourced. Up to High Sierra (10.13), at
least, it works. There hasn't been a formal release since two years ago
October, so I'm wondering about Mojave.

(Fred, sorry for the dup. I forgot to hit "reply all.")
--
Post by Fred Weinhaus
I use Xquartz on my Mac OSX Sierra just fine. But I got it from
https://www.xquartz.org. I do not think Apple supports X11 any longer,
only Quartz.
Does Xquartz still work? or MacPorts X11? Or
?
--
Fred Weinhaus
2018-11-24 06:26:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Sorry, what do you mean by "No, they don't"? Are you saying that Apple no longer supports XQuartz or no longer supports X11 for perhaps Mojave?
No, they don't. It's been open-sourced. Up to High Sierra, at least, it works. There hasn't been a formal release since two years ago October, so I'm wondering about Mojave.
--
I use Xquartz on my Mac OSX Sierra just fine. But I got it from https://www.xquartz.org <https://www.xquartz.org/>. I do not think Apple supports X11 any longer, only Quartz.
Post by Randolph M. Fritz
Does Xquartz still work? or MacPorts X11? Or
?
--
Christopher Jones
2018-11-24 11:58:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
No, they don't. It's been open-sourced. Up to High Sierra, at least, it works. There hasn't been a formal release since two years ago October, so I'm wondering about Mojave.
--
Apple have not supported (i.e. shipped with the OS) X11 or Xquartz for some time now.

Note that the version of Xquartz from www.xquartz.com <http://www.xquartz.com/> is in fact just a packaging of the MacPorts version ! In fact, the maintainer of the Xquartz releases has stated that they may well no longer make releases there, and only maintain the MacPorts provided version (via the xorg-server port) going forward.

I have exclusively used the MacPorts port for a number of years now, and it works flawlessly, on all OSes including 10.14. I recommend switching to it, if you currently are running the Xquartz installer version.

Chris
I use Xquartz on my Mac OSX Sierra just fine. But I got it from https://www.xquartz.org <https://www.xquartz.org/>. I do not think Apple supports X11 any longer, only Quartz.
Post by Randolph M. Fritz
Does Xquartz still work? or MacPorts X11? Or
?
--
Richard L. Hamilton
2018-11-24 16:22:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
One might suppose there are still people for which the standalone packaging of Xquartz might be preferable - people that for whatever reason, don't want to deal with the extra steps involved in installing MacPorts (including installing Xcode plus command line tools), let alone updating it, and don't think they'd want any of the other packages it offers.
Post by Christopher Jones
No, they don't. It's been open-sourced. Up to High Sierra, at least, it works. There hasn't been a formal release since two years ago October, so I'm wondering about Mojave.
--
Apple have not supported (i.e. shipped with the OS) X11 or Xquartz for some time now.
Note that the version of Xquartz from www.xquartz.com <http://www.xquartz.com/> is in fact just a packaging of the MacPorts version ! In fact, the maintainer of the Xquartz releases has stated that they may well no longer make releases there, and only maintain the MacPorts provided version (via the xorg-server port) going forward.
I have exclusively used the MacPorts port for a number of years now, and it works flawlessly, on all OSes including 10.14. I recommend switching to it, if you currently are running the Xquartz installer version.
Chris
I use Xquartz on my Mac OSX Sierra just fine. But I got it from https://www.xquartz.org <https://www.xquartz.org/>. I do not think Apple supports X11 any longer, only Quartz.
Post by Randolph M. Fritz
Does Xquartz still work? or MacPorts X11? Or
?
--
Christopher Jones
2018-11-24 17:43:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Richard L. Hamilton
One might suppose there are still people for which the standalone packaging of Xquartz might be preferable - people that for whatever reason, don't want to deal with the extra steps involved in installing MacPorts (including installing Xcode plus command line tools), let alone updating it, and don't think they'd want any of the other packages it offers.
I am simply stating what the maintainer himself has stated on the Xquartz mailing lists.

I don’t disagree, but also I made the comment on this list on the assumption everything here does have MP installed. In that case I would suggest using the port is the better option.

The maintainer has also stated if someone wanted to do the work to simplify the task of creating a standalone installer from the MP installation, he would welcome it, as he has very limited time to devote to maintaining X11 on macOS (which is why he might only focus on MP going forward).

Chris
Randolph M. Fritz
2018-11-24 20:22:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Thanks. That is both helpful and discouraging.
--
No, they don't. It's been open-sourced. Up to High Sierra, at least, it
works. There hasn't been a formal release since two years ago October, so
I'm wondering about Mojave.
--
Apple have not supported (i.e. shipped with the OS) X11 or Xquartz for some time now.
Note that the version of Xquartz from www.xquartz.com is in fact just a
packaging of the MacPorts version ! In fact, the maintainer of the Xquartz
releases has stated that they may well no longer make releases there, and
only maintain the MacPorts provided version (via the xorg-server port)
going forward.
I have exclusively used the MacPorts port for a number of years now, and
it works flawlessly, on all OSes including 10.14. I recommend switching to
it, if you currently are running the Xquartz installer version.
Chris
Post by Fred Weinhaus
I use Xquartz on my Mac OSX Sierra just fine. But I got it from
https://www.xquartz.org. I do not think Apple supports X11 any longer,
only Quartz.
Does Xquartz still work? or MacPorts X11? Or
?
--
Dr M J Carter
2018-11-26 09:36:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Note that the version of Xquartz from [2]www.xquartz.com is in fact
just a packaging of the MacPorts version ! In fact, the maintainer
of the Xquartz releases has stated that they may well no longer make
releases there, and only maintain the MacPorts provided version (via
the xorg-server port) going forward.
That's going to prove interesting for those of us using MacTeX: its
copy of gs-X11 seems to request and require libraries in /opt/X11 at
runtime, not just at setup. (In our setups, /usr/local/bin comes
before /opt/local/bin, for reasons I can be tedious about on request,
so MacTeX's gs preempts MacPorts's.)
--
Dr Martin J Carter
Computer System Administrator
Astrophysics, University of Oxford
Mojca Miklavec
2018-11-26 10:25:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dr M J Carter
Note that the version of Xquartz from [2]www.xquartz.com is in fact
just a packaging of the MacPorts version ! In fact, the maintainer
of the Xquartz releases has stated that they may well no longer make
releases there, and only maintain the MacPorts provided version (via
the xorg-server port) going forward.
That's going to prove interesting for those of us using MacTeX: its
copy of gs-X11 seems to request and require libraries in /opt/X11 at
runtime, not just at setup.
There's no easy solution to this.

The only workaround would be using @rpath trickery to allow using a
dylib from a different path (but even then you could only perhaps
check /opt/local/lib, not any other random prefix that MacPorts might
be installed under). Or load the library at runtime. But if you do
require X11, you need to get it from somewhere, and defaulting to the
version from MacPorts for ghoscript in MacTeX would be utterly
strange. MacPorts ships with its own version of ghostscript (which
doesn't need /opt/X11), and there's no need to install ghostscript
with MacTeX (I never do) if you have MacPorts installed already.

Additionally, when I built the binaries for legacy macs (for any
system that's no longer supported by Apple; shipped with TeX Live by
default, but not with MacTeX which no longer works there), I tried to
make sure to not support X11 in any way, so you don't get any X11
bindings with metafont for example. Precisely because I hate to have
failing binaries just because the user did not install /opt/X11.
Post by Dr M J Carter
(In our setups, /usr/local/bin comes
before /opt/local/bin, for reasons I can be tedious about on request,
so MacTeX's gs preempts MacPorts's.)
Mojca
Christopher Jones
2018-12-01 15:05:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dr M J Carter
Note that the version of Xquartz from [2]www.xquartz.com is in fact
just a packaging of the MacPorts version ! In fact, the maintainer
of the Xquartz releases has stated that they may well no longer make
releases there, and only maintain the MacPorts provided version (via
the xorg-server port) going forward.
That's going to prove interesting for those of us using MacTeX: its
copy of gs-X11 seems to request and require libraries in /opt/X11 at
runtime, not just at setup. (In our setups, /usr/local/bin comes
before /opt/local/bin, for reasons I can be tedious about on request,
so MacTeX's gs preempts MacPorts's.)
well, the easy solution is to use macPorts provided TexLive ports.. These are built against MacPorts X11 dependencies
.
Post by Dr M J Carter
--
Dr Martin J Carter
Computer System Administrator
Astrophysics, University of Oxford
Russell Jones
2018-12-03 09:59:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dr M J Carter
Note that the version of Xquartz from [2]www.xquartz.com is in fact
just a packaging of the MacPorts version ! In fact, the maintainer
of the Xquartz releases has stated that they may well no longer make
releases there, and only maintain the MacPorts provided version (via
the xorg-server port) going forward.
That's going to prove interesting for those of us using MacTeX: its
copy of gs-X11 seems to request and require libraries in /opt/X11 at
runtime, not just at setup. (In our setups, /usr/local/bin comes
before /opt/local/bin, for reasons I can be tedious about on request,
so MacTeX's gs preempts MacPorts's.)
well, the easy solution is to use macPorts provided TexLive ports.. These are built against MacPorts X11 dependencies….
Except where they're in TeXLive and not in MacPorts, or not on the
MacPorts build server and take a while to build.

Russell
Chris Jones
2018-12-03 13:23:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dr M J Carter
Note that the version of Xquartz from [2]www.xquartz.com is in fact
just a packaging of the MacPorts version ! In fact, the maintainer
of the Xquartz releases has stated that they may well no longer make
releases there, and only maintain the MacPorts provided version (via
the xorg-server port) going forward.
That's going to prove interesting for those of us using MacTeX: its
copy of gs-X11 seems to request and require libraries in /opt/X11 at
runtime, not just at setup. (In our setups, /usr/local/bin comes
before /opt/local/bin, for reasons I can be tedious about on request,
so MacTeX's gs preempts MacPorts's.)
well, the easy solution is to use macPorts provided TexLive ports.. These are built against MacPorts X11 dependencies….
Except where they're in TeXLive and not in MacPorts, or not on the MacPorts build server and take a while to build.
If macports is indeed missing something, Github PRs are always welcome to add it.

The build time not relevant to the point I was making, which is simply macports provides a texlive installation, that works against the MP x11 server, that I am sure provides everything the majority of users need. If you want this taking a little time to build it should not be a concern.
Russell
Ryan Schmidt
2018-11-25 08:49:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
I use Xquartz on my Mac OSX Sierra just fine. But I got it from https://www.xquartz.org. I do not think Apple supports X11 any longer, only Quartz.
Let's make sure we're not confusing terms. Your last sentence makes it sound like X11 and Quartz are somehow related or equivalent things, but they have nothing to do with one another. There have been some unfortunate naming choices, however, which can lead to confusion.

"X11" is the X window system, a framework for creating GUI applications on UNIX-like operating systems. Apple used to bundle a copy of X11 with macOS, but hasn't done so for many years now. The extent to which Apple supports X11 on those systems on which they bundled it probably amounts to verifying that it launches, and maybe helping you reinstall it if you removed it. The extent to which Apple supports X11 on systems it was not bundled with would be the same as their support of any other non-bundled third-party application, which is to say not at all. Whether or not Apple supports X11 or any other third-party application has no bearing on whether or not it will work.

"Quartz" is a macOS API for drawing two-dimensional graphics. It's also known as Core Graphics. Most any macOS app that draws anything on the screen will use Quartz / Core Graphics at some point.

"XQuartz" is a standalone build of X11 for macOS by Jeremy Huddleston Sequoia, an evolution of the X11 Apple used to bundle. (Jeremy is an Apple employee.) It has nothing to do with Quartz, except to the extent that it uses the Quartz graphics routines. It might have been less confusing if it had been called "X11 for macOS".

You can get the same software as in the XQuartz distribution by installing the MacPorts xorg-server port (or the xorg-server-devel port, if you'd like a newer development version rather than the latest stable version). In this case the application will be called X11.app instead of XQuartz.app but it is the same software. The MacPorts xorg ports are also maintained by Jeremy.

Many MacPorts ports that use X11 (or more precisely, ports that use GTK, which usually uses X11) can be changed (by selecting the +quartz variant) so that they use Quartz graphics directly, bypassing the X11 routines. This lets those ports provide a mode macOS-native GUI experience and eliminates the need to launch the separate X window environment.
pagani laurent via macports-users
2018-11-25 08:58:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Hi Ryan,

nice summary of X11/XQuartz history. I miss something about Terminal.app which (I suppose) is still supported by Apple even in Mojave (but I stop at Sierra as long as my present bookpro lives, so I don’t know). Isn’t it another variant of X11 (except that there are some differences but I am not sure to know all of them) ?
Thanks.
L.
Post by Ryan Schmidt
I use Xquartz on my Mac OSX Sierra just fine. But I got it from https://www.xquartz.org. I do not think Apple supports X11 any longer, only Quartz.
Let's make sure we're not confusing terms. Your last sentence makes it sound like X11 and Quartz are somehow related or equivalent things, but they have nothing to do with one another. There have been some unfortunate naming choices, however, which can lead to confusion.
"X11" is the X window system, a framework for creating GUI applications on UNIX-like operating systems. Apple used to bundle a copy of X11 with macOS, but hasn't done so for many years now. The extent to which Apple supports X11 on those systems on which they bundled it probably amounts to verifying that it launches, and maybe helping you reinstall it if you removed it. The extent to which Apple supports X11 on systems it was not bundled with would be the same as their support of any other non-bundled third-party application, which is to say not at all. Whether or not Apple supports X11 or any other third-party application has no bearing on whether or not it will work.
"Quartz" is a macOS API for drawing two-dimensional graphics. It's also known as Core Graphics. Most any macOS app that draws anything on the screen will use Quartz / Core Graphics at some point.
"XQuartz" is a standalone build of X11 for macOS by Jeremy Huddleston Sequoia, an evolution of the X11 Apple used to bundle. (Jeremy is an Apple employee.) It has nothing to do with Quartz, except to the extent that it uses the Quartz graphics routines. It might have been less confusing if it had been called "X11 for macOS".
You can get the same software as in the XQuartz distribution by installing the MacPorts xorg-server port (or the xorg-server-devel port, if you'd like a newer development version rather than the latest stable version). In this case the application will be called X11.app instead of XQuartz.app but it is the same software. The MacPorts xorg ports are also maintained by Jeremy.
Many MacPorts ports that use X11 (or more precisely, ports that use GTK, which usually uses X11) can be changed (by selecting the +quartz variant) so that they use Quartz graphics directly, bypassing the X11 routines. This lets those ports provide a mode macOS-native GUI experience and eliminates the need to launch the separate X window environment.
"S'il n'y a pas de solution, c'est qu'il n'y a pas de problÚme" (devise Shadok)
Ryan Schmidt
2018-11-25 09:21:23 UTC
Reply
Permalink
nice summary of X11/XQuartz history. I miss something about Terminal.app which (I suppose) is still supported by Apple even in Mojave (but I stop at Sierra as long as my present bookpro lives, so I don’t know). Isn’t it another variant of X11 (except that there are some differences but I am not sure to know all of them) ?
Terminal.app is a macOS application included by Apple as part of every version of macOS. Each tab in each terminal window runs a separate copy of a shell, such as bash. You use such a shell to run commands, such as the MacPorts port command.

There is an X11 program called xterm which serves a similar function, but running under X11 instead of running directly under macOS. In some X11 installations, and depending on how you've set up your X11 configuration files, an xterm may launch automatically when you start X11, which might be what's giving you the incorrect association between Terminal and X11.
Ken Cunningham
2018-11-24 06:36:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Randolph M. Fritz
Does Xquartz still work? or MacPorts X11? Or
?
yep, just fine.

XQuartz 2.7.11 works from the XQuartz website, which is what I’m using right now, and the MacPorts versions are there as well:

http://packages.macports.org/xorg-server-devel/xorg-server-devel-1.20.1_0.darwin_18.x86_64.tbz2 <http://packages.macports.org/xorg-server-devel/xorg-server-devel-1.20.1_0.darwin_18.x86_64.tbz2>

http://packages.macports.org/xorg-server/xorg-server-1.18.4_3.darwin_18.x86_64.tbz2


Ken
Loading...